What if ?

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What if ?

by davidjohn ^Pro @ 2009-01-03 – 22:16:47

What if after the second World War Germany continued as occupiers in Kent and South of England and remained there for 50 years ? Although I loathe violence I believe that I would be sorely tempted to force them out with rockets or hay forks. What would you do ?

I am not anti semitic but the Government of Israel is probably the most evil force on the planet. It, supported by Bush, fails to understand that building walls across Palestinian land and acting as violent occupying power is the reason for war and for hatred of that country.

God , if there is one, help us all ! David.

PS Where is ' Peace Envoy ' Blair now and what condemnation is coming from Gordon son of the manse ?
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18 Comments to What if ?

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- technomist
- 2009-01-03 @ 22:21:31
Not a very apt analogy. The Germans lost. They were in fact occupied and did not then fire rockets at the occupying powers, if I am not mistaken. Something to do with the occupying powers not behaving towards them in the manner that the Israelis have behaved towards their neighbours.

But I do agree with you about the Israeli government, which is stretching my tolerance very far indeed at the moment.
- - davidjohn ^Pro
  - 2009-01-03 @ 22:23:39
  My analogy is what if the Germans won ! and remained as occupiers ? David.
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- ranfuchs ^Pro
- 2009-01-03 @ 22:24:52
On the other hand, Israel left Gaza over two years ago, and gave it independence. Yet, rockets from Gaza into Israeli cities continued. So lets take another analogy. What would you have done if France would have shot daily rockets on Kent?
- - technomist
  - 2009-01-03 @ 22:41:10
  I understand that Israelis did not really leave. They have had troops all along the Egyptian border the whole time and have controlled everything that goes in and out of Gaza. Not exactly independence. They 'gave' them nothing, having wrecked the place on the way out.
  - - ranfuchs ^Pro
    - 2009-01-04 @ 10:32:24
    Well, it has left most of it, and did try a few times to allow border crossing. That led to a few suicide bombs in Israel. Naturally, under the circumstances, and considering that weapons are being smuggled and captured, it is nearly impossible not to control the border. It is also interesting that the Egyptian border is blocked just as well (Gaza has two borders), but yet this is not someone anyone mentions or demonstrates against.
    
    Once Israel has left the place, the Gaza people had a chance to try and reach settlement via negotiation or the international court. Instead, they chose to fire rockets, and destroyed their own chance of building a country. BTW, whether or not they mean it, or just use it to get support, Hamas still declares that its final goal is the destruction of the entire Israel.
    
    Would you have eased restriction under such conditions? Would you have negotiated on allowing them free border control?
    
    No simple solutions and categorizing either side as bad, good or evil is just an easy way to ignore the complexity of the problem
    - - davidjohn ^Pro
      - 2009-01-04 @ 11:46:34
      I have always felt great compassion for the Jewish people but the use of bombing by an advanced army / airforce of a largely civilian populated piece of land sickens me and all right thinking people. It is the government of Israel which I find loathsome. David.
      
      The protests around Europe and Asia held yesterday underline that my position is widely held.
      
      I hated the invasion of Iraq and protested against that. Shock and Awe on Baghdad I found equally unacceptable in an otherwise largely civilized world.
      - davidjohn ^Pro
        
        2009-01-04 @ 11:49:29
        
        Look at the famous speech of Winston Churchill something like ' We fight them [ the invaders ] on the beaches, on the hills, in the fields .... we will never surrender ' That's probably how Palestinians feel now. David.
        
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      - ranfuchs ^Pro
        
        2009-01-04 @ 11:57:01
        
        so if you were the Israeli government, and missiles were launched at your cities, Gaza government refused to renew any truce agreement, and kept smuggling weapons into Gaza, declaring that their goal is to destroy Israel. What action would you take?
        
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        davidjohn ^Pro
        
        2009-01-04 @ 12:45:17
        
        If the Israeli government had been less intransigent a two state solution would already be in place. If you occupy a country and subjugate the people for 50 years what does anyone reasonable expect ? David.
        
        You sound to me like a Zionist; am I right ?
        
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        ranfuchs ^Pro
        
        2009-01-04 @ 12:56:41
        
        Not a bit. I just believe that one sided view has never helped anyone in any complex situation. I think that both sides have made many mistakes throughout the years, and going 50 years back for excuses is just as bad as going to the bible for excuses. The problem we are facing is now, and while criticizing is easy, no one seems to have any solution
        
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        davidjohn ^Pro
        
        2009-01-04 @ 13:41:07
        
        Well we agree it is complex but it's not worth losing a single life so the overkill of blasting Ghaza with bombs and tanks fills me with outrage and distress.
        When the BBC keeps referring to militants rather than freedom fighters that shows a dreadful imbalance in western perception. David.
        
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        ranfuchs ^Pro
        
        2009-01-04 @ 13:52:50
        
        PKK, Al-Qaeda, Abu Sayyaf, Armed Islamic Group, Communist party of the Philippines, Egyptian Islamic Jihad, Gama'a al-Islamiyya, Hamas, Irish National Liberation Army
        
        Who is a terrorist, who is a militant, and who is freedom fighter? How can anyone tell? I can't.
        
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- - davidjohn ^Pro
  - 2009-01-03 @ 23:00:05
  The fact is Ghaza has been under effective seige; the wall goes through farms and orchards, there are check points everywhere and the idea that God gave Israels Palestinian land is crackpot. There is no God in that sense.
  
  I hate the rockets but I understand the hatred for occupying forces. Think of the Warsaw getto. Think of the holocaust. Israel should be the one country with the greatest compassion for the down and outs of this world. David.
  - - ranfuchs ^Pro
    - 2009-01-04 @ 10:56:54
    So your crackpot God may not be real, but he is real enough to demand land (on both sides) as well as the destruction of Israel (by the way, Gaza, unlike the west bank is not God promised land, so the argument is not valid).
    
    Are saying that because God does not really exist the problem is not real?
    
    I suggest you may want to view some of the execution videos where hooded warriors calling ‘Alllah Akbar’ using a chain saw to cut someone’s head off. I think it’s a nice demonstration how dangerous can crackpot God be. By the way, as Hamas is an extremist Islamic party, I would not recommend to use the crackpot expression around them.
    - - davidjohn ^Pro
      - 2009-01-04 @ 11:39:03
      We have no meeting of minds. I said I loathe violence on all sides. But if you moved into my garden or occupied my town I would be tempted to take all means to get you out David.
      - ranfuchs ^Pro
        
        2009-01-04 @ 11:52:01
        
        so maybe we do have meeting of minds after all
        
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        ranfuchs ^Pro
        
        2009-01-04 @ 11:53:48
        
        and by the way, according to modern English law, you have no right to use any real means (other than talking) to get me out of your house, without me suing you. If you used anything but talking, you will lose in court
        
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- davidjohn ^Pro
- 2009-01-04 @ 12:48:19
You are pushing that analogy too far. David
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